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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1792
   |
Posted - 2016.02.02 14:10:11 -
[1] - Quote
So my wh invasion orca was getting bumped in Niarja last night. We saved it. I'll give you the rundown of what it took.
3 webbing ships with a total of 5 webs AND a white knight kronos to counter bump the mach. Now that I've pulled it off for real I'd like to put some things to bed.
You can't 'simply' web a capital ship once it's being bumped. The slow down and align times of a bumped capital DO NOT allow enough time for 5 unbonussed webs to get it into warp before the mach makes another run and sends it flying. It wasn't even close. I will say that a rapier or huginn may have a chance to web a cap into warp up until the first bump occurs. Once the first mach bump occurs - webbing alone is pointless. The speed of the bounced ship in the bounced direction can't be reduced enough between bumps.
The only actual way to 'simply' save a capital once bumping is in progress is to bump and disrupt the mach AND apply webs to the capital.
Simply webbing with one additional corpmate once bumping is in progress is now disproven. It takes a team to extract the capital ship. Bumping the mach is the key.
The webbers involved were all experienced webbers that have been webbing caps into warp for years. The Orca pilot was also experienced and has the right skill points in the right places. He has max align skills for caps AND knows when and when not to ask for web application. We're not unskilled unexperienced noobs (as far as cap webbing goes).
'Simply webbing' a cap once the bumping process has begun isn't a thing. Counter bumping the mach to get your guy free and into warp is a thing (bring webs too!) |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1792
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 14:43:09 -
[2] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Waiting until the freighter is bumped before you start webbing is the problem there. If you web the freighter after it decloaks, you need about three seconds to web it into warp, even less time with a daredevil. Bumpers arent going to get you within that time frame. Webbing is a sure way to get past bumpers.
Again with the terrible 'limbo' argument. Theres nothing you can do about a lot in this game, especially if you negligently compromised your own position. Being held in limbo can even be done numerous ways. Whats telling is you guys are fine with people being held in limbo in every way except when gankers do it.
The link you posted is gevlon goblin giving advice on how to tank and then says that most people that lose their freighters deserve it. He also says ganking is 'widespread' because people are stupid with their freighters. Well at least hes right about the stupid part.
Don't be such a tool. I'm not arguing for or against any changes. I'm just stating the facts of the matter. I also stated that webbing w/ a rapier/huginn before bumping is a good idea. Daredevil is also an OK idea, but I'd go w/ a recon over the daredevil because of the time to run to the cap to get in web range AND the possibility of bumping the cap w/ the daredevil. Recons have neither of these mentioned possible down sides. Recons are probably better at webbing before that first bump lands.
My point is that even w/ experienced webbers, once that first bump lands - webbing no longer matters.
My second point is that bumping the mach is the way to go.
If you review my corps kb you can see we've spent the last 5 days in Apanake ganking mission boats, well teaching folks what are and what are not good targets. I'm not a part of the anti ganking crowd.
I do dislike stupid arguments. Many pro bumping arguments are stupid (not yours in this post, so don't get your panties all bunched up and think I'm getting personal on you) (well I did call you a tool, but not based on your arguments, just your attitude  )
I also think the current bumping mechanics are kind of dumb and it's just too easy to hold a guy w/out the aggression timer that would allow so many wonderful explosive counters. I also think that 'suiciding the mach' isn't a valid counter for a bad mechanic. I do think the best option to avoid getting cargo ganked is using a JF to avoid Niarja and the other obvious gates. I also think that preventing a capital from getting ganked is really really easy in the avoidance phase of the operation.
PRO HINT: Most ganks occur in a very small number of systems - don't go into these few systems unprepared. Niarja for example, come into it from a side gate and don't rule out getting ganked 1j out.
TL/DR Ganking is fine and working as intended. I personally think the bumping mechanics are stupid. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1792
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 14:47:59 -
[3] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:You'd have been quicker and easier scramming and webbing the bumping machariel with T1 frigates.
We had just declared our week of HS R&R over and we in the process of moving to invade a wh. We had just spent a lot of isk clearing a bunch of kill rights from other shinanigans. Based on timing we didn't want to put kill rights back on the ledger literally 15 minutes after we finished clearing the books. We went w/ webs once the white knight in the kronos started going for the mach. It all worked out.
I do agree with you though - you have to stop the mach if you want to extract once the bumping is in progress. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1793
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 15:09:54 -
[4] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:My post was directed at bigbud. Id didnt see yours serendipity before i hit post.
I wouldnt mind bumping becoming an aggressive act, but there is no way for the server to know when its accidental or malicious. And id like to see some nerfs to hauling before i see more nerfs to ganking.
Well aren't I just the thin skinned whiney biatch then?
Oops and sorries! |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1793
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 16:02:31 -
[5] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:The only problems with ganking/bumping are that the victims are, for the most part, too greedy in terms of how much they carry and too lazy to take active steps to protect their load; in some cases they're so damn lazy they aren't even at the keyboard.
Webs work, I use them for my Orca all the time, I've seen miners spiderweb each other in order to be aligned and able to warp in an instant, I've seen webbed freighters successfully evade bumpers and their cohorts; unfortunately, for some, they require effort and somebody who is paying attention to be effective.
I haul through Uedama regularly, I have a (r)isk limit and do so in a well tanked industrial that aligns like a cruiser. You don't have to fight gankers, you just have to make sure that somebody else is a far more succulent meal.
Webs only work before the first bump occurs. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1793
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 16:06:10 -
[6] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Precisely. Once the players find out how the server recognises malicious vs accident, they will exploit it.
Maybe CCP should just make me the supreme judge of malicious intent. For a fee folks could live feed me their case and I could evaluate it and with a click make the malicious evil doers flashy yellow for all to enjoy.
I've already proven I'm infallible, so I'm the likely choice for this task. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1793
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 16:52:04 -
[7] - Quote
We saved our orca after it was being bumped last night. It took 5 guys. If you don't have 5 guys to pull you out of the well, don't fall in it.
If it takes you more than 43 minutes to get your corp to come to your defense - get better corpies. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1795
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 18:35:32 -
[8] - Quote
Giaus Felix wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dear anti-gankers
Maybe you should learn to play with the current rules of the game before you ask for more changes that will backfire in your face anyway.
:effort:
So the white knight in the kronos on the Niarja gate that was pretty much THE factor in saving our orca (we had a bumping ship coming, but was pretty far out) said he's saved over 50 freighters. If you're looking to white knight I think a marauder to perform mach bumping is ideal. Fit it for max speed and max tank and go for it. I would imagine if you really dislike freighter ganking that every single mach bump would feel pretty good.
I would think a saved freighter would be gracious w/ a donation. I could even see if you advertised your service you could possibly be hired in advance to post up on a gate and engage (err.... bump) any machs before they could get the freighter into a bad spot.
The kronos pilot seemed to be having a good time and he was very effective. To be fair though, bring a webber and don't just totally depend on a random to save your bacon. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1806
|
Posted - 2016.02.03 12:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
A couple of general comments on this thread.
All you guys are awesome! Some much love and hate all rolled into a thread that has pretty much been around in one form or another for several years. It's in epic accomplishment.
If your freighter (whatever) is stacked up and being bumped for hours - your corp pretty much sucksdonkeyballs. Seriously. I'm in a small (<10 real people) corp. We were scattered all over HS (getting ready to invade a wh to set up a home) here's how the conversation went:
A "I'm getting bumped by a mach in Niarja"
Me "You noob, are you screwed?"
A "yes"
Me "everyone drop everything, get a webber and get to Niarja"
B "I'm bringing a scimmi, it's in route"
Me "how far out is everyone"
Fleet channel scrolls w/ 9J up 26J
Me "make best speed"
5 minutes later the first webber was on scene. He started coordinating trying to web the orca out. This is where we realized that 1 webber wouldn't do it. 2 minutes after that we had 3 webbers on scene and the scimmi there also. 10 minutes into it we were amazed to discover that 6 webs (any number) were useless. 12 minutes into it the white knight Kronos starts messing w/ the bumping mach and I call for 2 guys to bring cruisers w/ mwd to bump the mach. Before they arrive the Kronos scores big and we get the orca out.
So, if your freighter is bounced for hours - blame your corp. They should have been there. If you're hauling solo or as a member of an npc corp - you're taking a calculated risk. It's that simple. This freighter bumping and ganking thing is a known part of eve. If you're in the game long enough to be able to pilot a freighter - you've been in the game long enough to do the research on how to keep it safe.
Tips to prevent being ganked:
1. Scout the gate (use a ship that gets a webbing range bonus) - if there is a mach (or 2 or 3) there, think about your next move carefully
2. Be ready to web that thing as soon as it starts to align (immediate webbing isn't good, play around w/ when webbing is most effective for getting a freighter into warp in a slow system so everyone UNDERSTANDS the mechanics involved before you jump into Niarja)
3. If a bumper gets into you - don't panic. Do call for everyone to get there to get you out of your jam.
4. Things that help: A couple of webs. A couple of repping ships. MOST IMPORTANTLY - ships to bump the mach.
5. Your last resort is to web/scram the mach (bring a cheap ship that can catch it and complete the task).
PRO TIP: You don't have to jump into Niarja via the normal Amarr-Jita pipe route. Add 3 jumps and come in from a side gate.
PRO TIP: Patience and timing are big in preventing the bump (wait until they are busy w/ other prey - for example)
PRO TIP: If there is no one you can call in to help you - "yer sclewed laddybuck"
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1807
|
Posted - 2016.02.03 13:46:41 -
[10] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mag's wrote:Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:aaaaand signing off
o7 aaaaand you failed to answer.  They also just happened to ignore the 100% way to counter their looting issue.
You can only do so much for the community. Some things they have to do for themselves. I was actually commenting that your post was pretty much glossed over. I think that if you had put something with a bit of hate or controversy with it, then it would have been noticed more.
I'm not blaming you per say, but you could have done more. Try embedding some flare in the community service type posts. Is there a blinky sentence option? |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1816
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 13:57:21 -
[11] - Quote
Brad Neece wrote:
HPs increased because it make Logical sense or just people being pissed wreck warp-in were being popped? Logically thinking why are wrecks something that you can warp to in the 1st place.
And back to logical......Why are those pilots"transferring" loot to a DST hangar becoming Suspect at all if they are never really in possession of those items. Shouldn't the 1st ship that has the items physically in cargo hold go Suspect in that case.
Its not nerf to ganking to fix this simple thing, is it? After all the ganking is already over by the time the looting starts. Plus gankers like CODE. claim the loot doesnt matter to them anyway :)
The suspect timer is based on trying to move goods. For a practical example, fill a megathron's cargo w/ stuff. Undock and try to move loot from a can/wreck of your choice into cargo. It will fail due to no room in the destination container. You'll still be suspect.
So the person moving the stuff takes the heat. It's an old mechanic that predates fleet hangers. It should probably be updated to account for the addition of fleet hangers to all sorts of ships.
As others have pointed out, this movement to fleet hangers is innovative. Someone applied brains to game mechanics and found the 'best way' to complete the task. It's admirable. And let's be honest about this specific process - anyone can have a 300 SP alt dish that loot into any fleet hanger. It's not like only a select few folks are allowed to do it. You wanna go all white knight - here's your tactic. Ibis that loot into a DST before the ebil gankers do and then contract it to the original owner for free. THEN taunt the gankers in local by showing the contract and rubbing your success in their noses. It will hurt them. They can say and pretend that it doesn't, but you will be getting them where they live. Perhaps you could even thank them in local for providing you with the opportunity to help others. See where I'm going with this?
Work on updating the mechanic if you don't think it's where it should be, but don't play the unfair (or worse immoral) card on this. It's fair, because anyone can recover the assets and do with them what they please. Sure, you can't legally shoot the hauler once it has the goods, but you have an equal opportunity to transfer them at the onset.
Trust me on this - the loot matters, and it matters even more if you claim it and give it back to the owners. You just have to take some actions to make it matter the way you want it to. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1816
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 14:06:23 -
[12] - Quote
Bella Jennie wrote:baltec1 wrote:Bella Jennie wrote:
I want an area where I can pursue my peaceful activities in relative peace. What's wrong with that?
That's not EVE, go play STO if you want to be safe. Don't tell me what to do.. You don't own this game. You didn't develop this game and it's not up to you to define it. I want to play THIS game and I want it to be more REALISTIC. That's all. Realism should trump douchery..
See my opinion is that the game has been realistic since day 1. It's also my opinion that the douchery going on here is you showing up and trying to change a unique and beautiful MMO into just another cookie cutter piece of garbage where everything is safe and snuggly.
I'll reword Baltec into more understandable terms so folks will small self centered cognitive functions can see it more plainly.
MMOs like Eve - 0
MMOs where everything is safe and fluffy - dime a dozen and in many many flavors (including space pilot flavor)
Don't come take a dump on Eve and try to conform it to what you think is right. Please pick an MMO that suits your play style and needs. Showing up here and trying to convert a beautiful sandbox to fit your own personal whims is the actuall DOUCHERY that's going on. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1819
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 17:05:44 -
[13] - Quote
Bella Jennie wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Bella, perhaps you should have read up on the game before investing in it. assume much?
I'm assuming 'for comprehension' was implied in his comment.
It appears you researched eve and decided it would be a great idea to start playing it and then over time attempt to inflict some form of your own personal moral code on the game and all its players, because you're a douchebag... err I mean, because what you feel is right - obviously is, so let's fix all this immoral stuff and all in the name of what??? For the children - sure you said 'for the new players', but you're basically holding a baby up as a shield and calling others immoral. The whole image makes me sick.
You're the poison trying to infect a decade plus of engaging free form game play. This isn't HTFU, it's sincere advise. If you don't like the sandbox foundation that Eve is played on, go find a game that has a moral code you're happy with and enjoy it. In the end, Eve has been collecting folks that don't agree with your moral high ground (in the game) for over a decade and you will lose this crusade. Many many times I've watched players try to inflict / infect the sandbox with moral codes and dreams of safe and fare play.
Eve Safe - you have enough dps, tank or logistics to complete a desired task.
Eve Fare - if you can do it to them, they are able to do it right back to you.
This is seriously not a HTFU recommendation for you. You're not going to enforce any moral codes on this game, so if that sort of thing is important to you, you'll never be happy here. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1827
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 18:04:07 -
[14] - Quote
Bella Jennie wrote:CAPTA1N OBVIOUS wrote:Quote:You add nothing of substance other than contrary comments & wild speculation as to my gameplay. But that's what you've obviously been doing. Rank hypocrite. Obviously, you are a terrible shiptoaster and this thread is terrible and should be burnt to the ground. Obviously. must I be a "shiptoaster"? why must my gameplay match YOUR criteria? Do you even realize how INTOLERANT you make yourself seem?
In the context of this thread - hypocrisy GOLD
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